The Longevity Formula

Why Dopamine is Making You Unhappy

• Dr. Brandon Crawford • Season 1 • Episode 25

Share episode

Send us a text

This episode focuses on the role of dopamine in shaping our behavior, emotions, and decision-making. The conversation explores how dopamine is more than just a "pleasure" chemical; it is a driving force behind motivation, anticipation, and the pursuit of goals. The episode also delves into the balance between dopamine, pain, and pleasure, discussing how an imbalance can lead to burnout, addiction, and a disconnection from purpose and passion. Additionally, the episode touches on practical strategies for managing dopamine levels, such as practicing gratitude and understanding the importance of balance in life.


What You’ll Learn

  • Uncover the complex role of dopamine in shaping behavior and emotions.
  • Learn how dopamine influences motivation, anticipation, and goal pursuit.
  • Understand the connection between dopamine and conditions like burnout and addiction.
  • Discover practical strategies to balance dopamine levels and optimize well-being.
  • Get a sneak peek into the impact of digital detox on dopamine and brain health.


Ideas Worth Sharing

“As human beings, we don't do anything that doesn't have a payoff. That's how we're wired.” — Dr. Jerri LaVigne

Products


Learn More
For more information, resources, and podcast episodes, visit https://tinyurl.com/3ppwdfpm

Voice Over: Welcome to the Longevity Formula with Dr. Brandon Crawford. Let's explore the new era of wellness. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast. Today is going to be a lot of fun. We're going to be talking about a chemical inside your brain that determines so many things about your life. This chemical is going to help you make decisions, it's going to drive what you eat, it's going to drive what you say, it's going to drive how you feel.

So many different things that define your life. Okay. I'm talking about dopamine and to join me in this conversation I have one of our favorite guests of all time. Dr. Jeri Levine. Thank you so much for coming And I consider you definitely a dopamine expert. I know we've had so many different Conversations about how this neurochemical really helps define our life So I'm really excited to get into this and so the plan is we're gonna talk about dopamine Dopamine first.

You know, what is it? Where does it come from? Why do we have it? Who knows where that conversation is going to go. It's going to be fun. And then next we'll have a part two and we'll talk about do we need to have this digital detox, dopamine detox? Like what does that look like? What does it even mean?

Right? So that's the plan, right? Awesome. So dopamine, what are your first thoughts? What is this thing? Why do we have it? What's going on? 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: It drives us so much of the time, right? It's that anticipatory feeling. It's, it's looking for the next thing. It's waiting for the next, you know, it's, it's finding, it's always searching for that next step.

And if you even go back to, they've done so many studies now on, on primitive societies and initial societies and how many of those initial tribes were led by Dopamine driven individuals because they're looking for their next place. They're looking for their next home, right? How to make that. I mean, it's, it has run us since day one.

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yes. So dopamine, it's this neuro chemical, right? And it's coming from this older part of the brain called the midbrain, right? From an area called the substantia nigra pars compacta, right? There's other areas it comes from, but that's the main area. Yeah. Yeah. And this area is also called the mesencephalon.

And I remember when we were studying the mesencephalon the, the instructor, I think it was actually Tom Colleton. He was a good friend of mine. He was teaching neurology at the time. He put up this picture and it was the mesencephalic beast, right? And he was describing this like this beast is only worried about food, sex and survival, right?

And I think that that's an exaggeration about dopamine, but I mean, largely. That's kind of what it's doing, right? Dopamine is, it's not just about pleasure, right? Right. Can you speak to that a little bit? Because I think that's a misconception, don't you? 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: I do. I think that, well, like I said, I think that dopamine is an anticipation molecule, right?

And so there is this whole idea of wanting versus having. So buyer's remorse is an excellent example to me of a dopamine driven decision, you know, because what winds up happening in that, in that process is that dopamine promise gets broken. Because you told me if we bought this house, we'd be happy forever, that this family was just going to thrive.

You know, if I had this car, then I'd be getting all the dates, right? That kind of thing. And so when, when we, when we don't find that balance, when we don't figure out or can't chemically balance those chemicals, all of those neurotransmitters, dopamine is either And it's just, I think it's so important. I love this conversation because I think it's so important for us to figure out how to regulate ourselves.

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yes. One hundred percent. I, I also like for everyone to understand if we talk about dopamine, we also talk about Really need to talk about epinephrine and norepinephrine. So those are just fancy words for adrenaline. Norepinephrine is like adrenaline in your brain. Epinephrine is adrenaline in your body.

And these neurochemicals are about pushing you, making you move, doing things. Like this is connected to our sympathetic nervous system. And what people may not realize is that if we get too much of a build up of norepinephrine in our synapse, it starts to shut us down. And this is very much related to burnout, to caregiver fatigue, to what you were just talking about.

I was pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing. I got this and it's like, what happened? That's a little different discussion. We'll get into it. But what dopamine does is it degrades norepinephrine in the gap. And the synapse so that you can continue to push, you can push through the pain. You can, you can do these things.

And that dopamine is largely driven by the purpose, the passion, right? And so if you're just constantly seeking something or working on something you're not passionate about, you don't have purpose for, then yeah, you start to get burned out. You start to, you know, fall out of love with what you're doing, right?

I mean, it's, it's a discussion that I think is very important for our society right now. Because I do feel like we're being disconnected largely from our purpose and our passion and these bigger things that I think we should be thinking about, right? 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Well, yes, and I think too that, Everything comes faster.

Everything comes, I mean, now, when I think about a 30 second sound bite, holy cow, 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: so long, they just go on and on and on, you 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: know, now, you know, what a Snapchat thing lasts for 10 seconds. All right. Right. Those kinds of things. And so I think that on the one hand, as a society, We're driving that dopamine push that dopamine push, you know, you've got to get it.

You've got to get it You've got to stay on top. You know, what's the next thing? You know kind of thing and And so it's it's interesting, you know, we've talked before about how Brain scans have changed so much in the last, what, 50 years since they first started doing them. And how, up until 20 years ago, you know, now there's a, there's a pathway for your thumb swiping across a phone screen, where before there wasn't one.

And I'm, I'm Horrified, frightened, and fascinated all at the same time to see where we're going with this very visual, very dopamine driven social direction. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yes. One hundred percent. One hundred percent. I think something else we need to really understand when, you know, we're thinking through dopamine, what it is and what it does is the pain pleasure balance in that, you know, as we're seeking something, we're getting this rise of dopamine.

When we achieve it, or when we don't achieve it, there's a dramatic drop, right? And, and that drop is driven and associated with something called dynorphin and dynorphin is that dopamine crash. And that's where essentially pain comes from, right? This, or what you can call suffering or this uncomfortable feeling, right?

As you're seeking. You're getting this rise and let's say you rise up to here, right? And then let's say you achieve that goal. You buy that house, you get that car, you get that thing. You will have an equal, if not larger crash, right? Associated with that darned dynorphin. And then what happens?

Well, the person wants to start seeking again, right? And I think that that, when, when I actually was able to understand that, right, because I knew it. From a chemical perspective, like I knew it from studying neurology, but when I actually Experienced it and felt it right. That's when I really understood.

Oh, okay, so Maybe I do need to rest. Maybe I do need to recover through this this quote painful, you know period right? And that's gonna be largely what we focus on next, but I mean I, I think it's important for people to understand this pleasure pain response, whether it's From a patient perspective, whether it's from a, you know, everyday life perspective, marriage perspective.

I mean, it's just, that's what life is, right? It's just this up and down. Do you have any comments on that? 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Well, I do because when the, so the greater the crash, so the higher, sometimes the achievement or the goal or reaching that goal, you know, and the, the, the, the harder the crash there is, especially in pain.

Because we know from studies that serotonin and oxytocin and endorphins and endocannabinoids, the THC of the brain, right? That those are, those are the things that, that help alleviate the pain. Those are the things that help stop. Those are what Dr. Lieberwitz and, and Michael Long called the here and now molecules, right?

That other side of that dopamine. And when we can raise those chemicals as the dopamine's going down from that initial, okay, check mark, I got it, then we can find ways to not have caregiver fatigue that where it's a total burnout. Yes. It's caring for somebody else difficult. Absolutely. And we just know it's a hard job, but there are ways to fight off that.

Constant fatigue that can continual burnout. Same thing with pain. I think those are similar brain wise and in how we treat them. Yeah, and so for me, it's to me. It's a matter of finding that balance between those other chemicals. So that dopamine crash doesn't have to be so devastating. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Absolutely. And I know that we've talked about this, especially with like the chronic pain syndromes.

But it's almost like chemically, we can, there is a possibility where someone can actually become addicted to their pain. Absolutely. I mean, I think what I want the audience to also understand is that pain and pleasure are experienced in the same parts of the brain. And I think you've actually said that on the podcast before.

And this may be difficult to understand because what I'm not saying is it's your fault. You're in pain. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you have a system that is set up so that it is possible to become addicted to a pain syndrome or to, to anything really, to any kind of deleterious event that, you know, has been associated with this dopamine system.

That's something that I feel like we're very effective to help someone navigate that. Right. Oh yeah, absolutely. I think you have so many tools that I don't have. I think that, you know, there's, there's so many ways you can help someone in a scenario. Do you have any kind of words of wisdom or anything to help?

I know I've put you on the spot. No, no. It's 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: okay. I think that, yeah, I mean, I think there are a lot of ways to build those kinds of things up, you know, so when we want more oxytocin. It's tricky, you know, because everybody says we'll hug for 20 seconds. Okay, you start hugging somebody for 20 seconds and they completely freak out on you.

Right. So that's not always the best way to do it. But playing with a pet or Giving a compliment, holding hands with somebody, even if it's the person that, you know, even if it's your, if you're in a caregiving situation and it's the person that you're caregiving to, you know, just physical touch, you know, preferably not here, but, you know, just being able to, to relate in that physical way, those things build oxytocin.

Serotonin, being in nature, meditating, and meditation does not mean spending 60 minutes in a lotus position chanting Aum. It may be in the shower, or it may be while you're stopped at a traffic light. Or for you when, yeah, exercise, I mean, it doesn't have to be this whole separate, because it's just one more place where we set ourselves up.

Right. Not to achieve. Right. Which will eventually be another part of this conversation. Right. But so any place where we can just, the here and now chemicals are about the five senses. If you can taste it, touch it, feel it, hear it, see it. Then then those things will help raise those other chemicals and will help balance out some of that dopamine.

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Nice. Yeah Absolutely, and I totally agree with you, you know meditation Calming one spirit calming one's mind is not I I don't I can't sit in a dark room With you know in the Lotus position chanting. Ohm that That would actually drive a stress response at me. Maybe that's a problem. I don't know, but if I run And my body is in motion Which has a great connection with this dopamine discussion, right?

Because dopamine is about pursuit Right and so motion helps to regulate the system you know, that gets me into that, that deeper meditative calming of my mind. Like I can be so pissed off and frustrated at the world and if I go run, I am, I am in a much better place. Right. Not only that, but this is interesting.

If I run in a, you know, on a day that's a hundred plus degrees. And I have a hill beside my house that I love to sprint up and I will push myself. I will run until I start to see spots and I'm like, I starting to get tunnel vision. It's like I'm pushing myself to a painful place. Just like I love cold plunges, right?

That is actually more calming. Then if I were to just go for a leisurely jog, that's just me. I'm not telling everyone should do that. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Well, no, but we're right back in that pain pleasure center. Absolutely. I mean, it makes perfect sense. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: And if 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: you're not a runner, you can watch a funny movie or you can take, okay, so I know this sounds silly and for anybody that's ever done it, you're super uncomfortable the first part of it, but there's this thing called laughing yoga.

Dr. Brandon Crawford: I've never heard of this. Yes. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: So there's, and there are people who are certified as laughing yoga instructors, and you are doing yoga positions, you're doing those, the mantras, but at the same time, it, it's a constant forced laugh. And if they, there are studies where they do brain scans before and after, and it's amazing the way that this opens up the pleasure center.

Those kinds of things helps balance out this here and now chemicals. So I'm not, I think exercise is very important. I'm just saying that, you know, there are other ways to do it. That's awesome. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: I love this idea of laughing yoga. Yeah. Sounds more fun than hot yoga. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: It definitely 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: sounds fun. Or what is it?

Goat yoga? There is 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: goat yoga. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: I don't know if I could do the goat yoga thing. Maybe we should bring in laughing yoga too. I think that I could, I could get behind that. Do 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: you really? 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: That sounds fantastic. Okay. I like to laugh. I may hold 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: you to 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: that. Let's do it. Okay. That got me off my train of thought a little bit, but that was good.

That was good. That was a good discussion. How about this? Let's talk about let's talk about some universal symptoms of withdrawal. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Okay. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: So some symptoms of withdrawal that's going to be largely noted as anxiety. Irritability, insomnia, and dysphoria, right? And dysphoria is this unease, like you're not satisfied the opposite of euphoria, right?

That's dysphoria. Those are, you know, noted in the research as like the universal symptoms of withdrawal from dopamine. And I think everyone out there is thinking, man, this is my husband. This is my wife. This is my child. This is my right. But I think it's important to note, you know, what this looks like so we can better understand it.

We can identify it in our everyday life. One cool example, you know, I was talking with a patient that we worked with for several years now. He, he had a stroke. And this guy was he's a great guy. He reminded me a lot of the people that grew up in my small, you know, Texas town that I grew up in.

He, he liked to work with his hands. He would run a bulldozer you know, kind of a rugged, you know, kind of guy. So we're talking and he's talking to his wife. He's made great progress, but his wife was saying he's, he's anxious. He's irritable. He's not sleeping great. Like, what's, he's, what is going on?

Like, he's making, he's moving better and he's doing all these things better. But why is he like this? And it occurred to me, I was like, this guy ran a bulldozer. I guarantee you he was dipping snuff. And I was like, did he smoke or did he dip? And she was like, oh, you would never see him without a dip in his lip.

And I was like, has he had a dip since his stroke? She said, no, of course not. He hadn't done that. And I said, well, let's give them a little bit of nicotine and see what happens. And it's interesting because I'll reference another study. Now there's a study that looked at what chemicals or things increased the dopamine response.

Like what kind of dopamine response did you get? And the study noted when we consume chocolate, 55 percent increase in dopamine. Sex increases dopamine by 100%. Nicotine increases dopamine by 150%. Cocaine increases dopamine by 225 percent and amphetamines increase dopamine by 1000%. And this is inclusive of our ADHD medications like Adderall and Ritalin, which are classified as amphetamines.

Right? I think it's important for people to understand, and I'm not telling people, I guess I should Say this. I'm not right. I'm not telling people, go eat your chocolate, have sex while doing nicotine and cocaine. Right. That's not what I'm saying. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Right. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: It's just understanding that, you know, we, we, as soon as we start seeking dopamine or using some stimulants or something like that, we're creating new pathways in our brain.

We're defining our personality. We're defining our brain plasticity. So we'll use it therapeutically sometimes. Some type of strategy, not always nicotine, but some type of strategy therapeutically in practice to help someone overcome something or help someone with a movement disorder or help, you know, something like this.

But I don't know, I'm going on a tangent. I know I started in one place and I ended up in another, but do you have anything to add with, you know, whether it be withdrawal, whether it be, you know, some type of therapeutic strategy or something like that? 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Well, I think that, again, it's, it goes back to balance, right?

It just, it goes back to finding a way to balance everything out. And, and that's the tricky part of, of doing this, this work, even in a, in, in a office, like with patients, because, There's there's such a fine line right between but and it feels good I mean, I like to be passionate. I like that. I like something new, you know I like the new idea the new project the new thought, you know that turns me on absolutely and so I think if we just, I like these conversations because I think if we just have a better understanding of, of what that balance looks like or what that balance can be or how to achieve it, then, then people have a better way to work with this and they're not constantly.

Looking for because what happens eventually is when we run out of like you the list you just gave when we run out of Dopamine then we're going to find something that will create it in us. Yes, right and then that gets tricky 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: That's a great conversation. I was thinking about that. I don't remember when it was yesterday I don't know but when you're in a situation and you're pushing pushing pushing But you don't have that balance that purpose that passion, right?

Then that's where it's easy to reach for one of these stimulants. You're reaching for the nicotine. You're reaching for the Whatever right and that's propping you up for a period of time, but that is not a long term solution now at all and ultimately Can just then fuel this conversation of you being addicted to the pain Like it can, it can do that because your lack of passion and purpose will then send you into that hole, that dopamine quicksand every single time, every single time.

Interesting discussion. And that's a great segue to what you brought up before we started this podcast about gratitude. So talk to us a little bit about gratitude. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: So it's important because it, it helps one of the things that we can use to help balance those chemicals. It's one of the things that, you know, dopamine has two tracks.

And when we get out of that long track, the one that goes to the prefrontal cortex. Yes. I think you have the whole pathway. I 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: do. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: I do not. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: What do you want me to go through it? Okay. So it's the dylamic pathways. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Exactly. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: And so when dopamine makes that whole circuit, everything just works better.

Like everything works better. The body works better. The brain and the body connection works better. We're just on. Yes. And. Gratitude is one of the things that pushes that loop, and it sounds corny, and it sometimes sounds silly, but, and people talk about gratitude journals and, and different things. So one of the things that I do, and one of the things that I ask my patients to do when we're working with gratitude is that every morning when you first wake up, because I wanted to be the, I wanted to become that first thing.

And I'm all about cheap fasting. Easy. I mean, that's my whole, that's my whole model. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: We can take that in a couple of directions. I won't. I'm kidding. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: But you know, it doesn't all have to cost a million dollars and it doesn't have to be super hard. Yeah. And that's a great discussion. You know what I mean?

100%. And you first wake up in the morning, I want you to think of three things that you're grateful for and not, and, and really give it a moment, you know, not the same three things every day, you know, don't get stuck in there cause that's not gratitude, it's just repetition. There should be purpose behind it.

That's an easy thing. It shouldn't take very long. If you're having trouble coming up with three things, then call me. We need an appointment. And then I want people to contact one person every day. For whom they are grateful and you can call them. You can send a text. You can send an email. Good grief. Now, you can talk to them on social media.

I mean, you got 1000 ways to contact people and you don't have to go into any long explanation. You just say, I thought of you this morning. I'm super grateful for you and what you do in my life or whatever. It doesn't even have to be that sappy. You know, I thought of you. I'm grateful that I know you.

Boom. Right. And it's, it's nice because it pushes that gratitude in a different way because you're having to step out a little bit. So we get to work on some of our own fear stuff. We get to work on some of our own issues. And at the same time, As a psychologist, it's really interesting to me to watch people's response to that.

Right. Who, who's into, and another conversation I would like to have at some point with you is about receiving. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yes. I was thinking in my head right now, I was like, I don't receive gratitude very well. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Right. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: I'm aware. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: So it's one of the things I push you on. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Right. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Right, because it's important. And and it's, it's interesting then to see how comfortable am I giving gratitude and then how comfortable are people receiving it.

And then eventually, sometimes that train gets back to me and I get these little texts of, I'm so grateful for you. And then I get to look at. Oh, how well am I receiving that? Like, where am I? You know, it's just, it's one of those things that just helps us find where we are. So I like, so that's my thing.

Think of three things every morning for which you're grateful and contact one person for whom you're grateful. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: I like that. Is it, so when you're doing this, is it someone that should be like, An obvious choice. Like I'm clearly, I'm thankful for my wife. Clearly I'm thinking, you know, or should you reach down deep and be like, I really don't really like this person, but I'm going to go ahead and break the ice and say, I like them and I'm grateful for them.

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: I think you can totally not like someone and still be incredibly grateful for them. A 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: hundred percent. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Okay. So yes, absolutely. I think that's huge. And I think it just opens us up to be more of who we are when we can make those kinds of. We are in a, I feel like we're in a societal place right now where it's, you know, it's, it's all or nothing.

You like me or you don't. We agree or we don't. And if we don't agree, then we can't be friends. You know, cause I mean, I'm older, but when I think about growing up, good grief, my, my parents and their friends, my parents were big partiers. We had lots of parties and nobody talked politics, right? You didn't know who your neighbor was voting for.

There weren't signs in the yard, right? You didn't know how much your neighbor made, right? You know, I mean, it's so different now and we are so locked into this. If we're not on the same team in every possible way, we can't be friends. So I think that being, there are lots of people I'm grateful for that I don't want to have dinner with.

Dr. Brandon Crawford: 100%. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: And so, and so when I can include them, and I have, there's some that it's just, I'm not in a place where I can authentically reach out, you know? Yes. But when I can, I think that's important for my growth. The only thing I can do is clean up my side of the street. Yes, right. And whether or not they accept it, that's not on me, but I can do my part.

And then I'm grateful that I'm doing the work. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah. It was interesting you say that because I've never even thought through this, but my parents had pretty differing political views. And I grew up in a time when I knew other friends that were in the same type of household. It's like one would vote red, one would vote blue.

And there was never like a blow up about it. There was never like these. Crazy yelling, you know, conversations at Thanksgiving and all this kind of stuff. It's like. I understand your view. Here's my view. I respect that you respect this and that's how I grew up and maybe that's how I am the way that I am, I guess, you know, but that was very peaceful and it was very much you know, me understanding that just because someone doesn't think the way I think that's okay.

And honestly, some of 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: that, and honestly, yeah. And 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: that's, that's honestly what I think builds a beautiful society. Because then I get to hear perspectives that I never would have thought of because I don't think like that. Right. And then we get to leverage one another's strengths, right? 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Right. And again, we're still, and it's still, we're finding balance.

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah. A hundred percent. That's a great, that's a great closure of that loop that, that is balanced. You're a hundred percent. Yeah. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Yeah. We can do a whole podcast on dopamine and politics. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Oh my gosh. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: But I just felt like this wasn't the 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: time. That'd be fun. Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, you're right. I mean, gratitude is huge no matter how you look at it.

I was like Dr. Emoto's work, you know, where he froze the ice crystals and there was love and gratitude, right? Love and gratitude consistently would form symmetrical ice crystals. And when you looked at hate or something like this, they were very not symmetrical and what, you know, people would consider ugly and, and all this kind of stuff.

And so love and gratitude they've, I've tried to have that at the center of my heart. Right. But it's hard when, you know, you like another conversation with a patient yesterday they have four kids there. Their marriage is good. But they have one child that has a very high demand of special needs.

It's like, there's, there's a lot going on. With the kiddo and, and, you know, they're a patient of ours and, and I agree there's a lot going on. It's a very difficult life. How. What is the benefit and how can one find gratitude in those scenarios? 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Well, okay. So you have to look at, you have to look at, I feel like you have to look at what you have.

So there's a, there's a foundation there, right? They're all on this journey together. And how thankful to not be one parent. A single parent trying to manipulate the system and the therapies and the costs and all the things by themselves. How nice to have a tribe to do this with, right? How nice to have three children who don't have this level of, of need.

How nice that our child who has this level of need has the support from siblings, right? 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Oh my gosh, yes. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: That kind of thing. And to have a partner. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Right. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: That, you know, they talk about, you know, if you can build a house together, you can stay married. If you can, well, working in, in, with a lot of this population, if you can go through this kind of trauma, if you can go through this injury, this whatever happens to get you to us, if it's that kind of situation, To have somebody beside you that that works.

When I work with families in the clinic around this kind of thing, when we're doing some of my weird stuff. I, we had a family recently, and the husband and wife could not be more different. I mean, they, they, they. They could not be more opposite. And you hear, you know, opposites attract, but do they stay together long term and things like that.

But they complement each other so well. She's the big picture. She's the only reason they got to the clinic. She's the one that made that all come together. And he's the one that makes sure everybody's out of bed and dressed and fed every morning. Yeah. Right. Right. And so as different as they are. It was so amazing to get to see how well they work together and how they keep this thing going and Those kinds of things you can't help but be grateful for 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: yeah, and so I love that You know, it's like there's there's this elephant in the room.

That is dragging life down But what about the 100 things that is uplifting that we can celebrate that we can you know what I mean? I think the benefit of that is there's no supplement, there's no medication, there's no therapy, there's no laser, there's no, you know, there's like, you can't replace that is what I'm trying to say.

And, and I think it's very important, you know, maybe if there's one thing that anyone gets from this podcast, it's this, it's like, that's a therapy in and of itself. And, and what, what you brought to me before the podcast and everything is that gratitude does help regulate these dopamine systems. You know, we can talk about the ventral tegmental area, prefrontal cortex, frontal lobe.

All of these things, but ultimately like, look, gratitude helps regulate dopamine. And it's 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: easy. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah. And it's free. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: It's free. Maybe it's not always easy, but it's definitely free. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: True. Yeah, you're right. I mean, because sometimes it's not easy, you know, sometimes, sometimes your spouse is a jerk.

Sometimes the people around you are making it very difficult to be grateful sometime, you know, and, and does that make the response then even greater? 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: I think so. I mean, I think so. When I can shift, when I can be grateful for something that initially I just want to complain about, right, I told you when we started this.

the first couple of months. This is hard. The travel's hard, 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: right? You're traveling from halfway across the country. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: And it was difficult. Yeah. And, and I had to get really clear, but I love, like, as soon as I'd walk in the door, I'd be like, I'm home. I'm supposed to be here. I know I'm, I know I'm on path, but why is it so hard?

You know, why is it so hard? And so I had to stop and really look at that. And. The minute that I committed to. This is the next right step. This is where I'm supposed to be and this is what we're supposed to be doing and I have no idea where any of this is headed, but I haven't ever had any idea where I was headed.

I just go. Right. And that's a whole other discussion. Yeah. How 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: to be okay with that. Right. Right. I don't have 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: a 12 year plan. Right. If you had told me a year ago we'd be doing this, I'd told you you were crazy. Exactly. Exactly. But the moment that I could put. All that in perspective and what started that ability to put it in perspective was what I have always and my teacher taught me this, I have to go back to.

What in the situation makes me grateful? What in the situation, where here can I feel gratitude? Well, I always feel gratitude for you, and you know that. And for our patients, and just for the work we're doing, and for being able to, Oh, I want to talk about models and breaking the model. Because, What is the most valuable resource in the world?

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Love. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Creativity. Okay. I think so. I love that. Right? Yeah. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Talk to me about it. And 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: so we use dopamine, sorry, sometimes use dopatone when we don't have enough dopamine. We use dopamine to build models, right? We build a model. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Okay. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Everywhere from this is how I'm going to get out of the house to this is how I'm going to run a clinic to this is how I'm going to build this empire, right?

We build models because those models allow us to. Project and to abstract and to look forward and to see where we think it's going to go. Yes. Right. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Plan, execute, strategize. Yes. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Until it doesn't. And, but dopamine is what drives the making of that model. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yes. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Dopamine is what also drives the breaking down of that model, right?

Because when the model doesn't work anymore. Then we've got to find a way to shift that. Yes. Right. And so it fascinates me that it's so contraindicating sometimes, you know, that it's, it's what we use to sometimes create some level of stability and then it's what we use to just completely tear that down.

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Absolutely. It is. You're right. And that's, that's a great discussion for sure. So is there, I guess, number one is there's the need to acknowledge it, right? That maybe once we hit a place of stability that, well, the one thing that's constant in life is change, right? We're always going to be changing.

And that goes back to the concept of like, I don't know where I'm going to be in 10 years, but hey, I'm on this great path. I'm doing what I need to do right now. And you know, but then understanding that as things start to break it down, just understanding these concepts, right. And understanding needing to leverage things like gratitude, leverage things like.

Movement, meditation, all of these types of things, how that can, what's the goal of that? Is the goal to accelerate the breakdown or is the goal to stabilize, to slow the breakdown? Or is it just to be okay with the breakdown?

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: I don't know. I mean, for me, for me personally, just the way I think it's, it's to be okay with the breakdown, right? To be okay with. This was great and this worked for this long and now it's time for something else. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Right. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Right. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah. Yeah. Nice. I feel like I'm having a therapy session. This is good. Well, and that kind of gets into a topic I wanted to touch on.

And that's loss chasing and it's different, it is different, but it's kind of along the same lines. So loss chasing is typically mainly associated with gambling disorders and, or that's where it's defined in the literature mainly. We're going to talk about it from a different perspective, but basically it's this actual desire to lose.

And not necessarily win, because if you're losing, then that actually creates a stronger urge to continue to gamble, right? But what we were talking about is how loss chasing can actually be applied so much differently like these people that we kind of already touched on it, like how, how this concept can maybe push us in a direction of failure or push us in a direction of self sabotage, right?

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Right. Okay. As human beings, we don't do anything that doesn't have a payoff. Correct. We just, we're, that's how we're wired. Absolutely. And A payoff doesn't have to be positive, right? And so when people, there's a comfort, it sounds, it sounds so crazy when you talk about it, but it's true. There is a comfort in the disharmony.

There is a comfort in the pain. There is a comfort in the losing because this is what I know, right? This is what I know. And this is what I understand and this is what I'm good at. Yes. And this is what is expected of me. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yes. Right. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: And so when it's interesting, like I've worked a lot with addiction and in my opinion certainly there are similarities, but with gambling addiction.

There seems to be more of this, the, the, the source seems a little different to me. The, like, like you said, that they're, the bigger the crash, then the bigger the need the next time for that win. And it, it seems a little different to me than a physical addiction to a drug, right? It, the mind, the mind games behind that and what we tell ourselves seem very different.

And that, and I think there's self sabotage in all addiction, right? But, but I like the, I like that this has kind of gone in a little different direction because I think it is a little different and then it relates, that relates for me directly to relationships. Why do people stay in abusive or toxic environments?

This is, this is the devil I know, right? And even though there is this need for complaining about it and talking about it, you know, how many people do you know that aren't happy and all they want to do is talk about how unhappy they are? Well, that's where they get that dopamine release, right? And being able to vent about the unhappiness, but they won't do anything to change it.

Right. Right? And so they just want to talk about it more and talk about it more and it's kind of the same thing to me. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: It is. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: As the, as the fiction. Why do these, 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: like, that drives me crazy. I used to be in a, in a men's group a long time ago and it's like. I'm all about solutions and I'm like, every time we get together, all you guys talk about are the same problems.

Why do you have the same problems? Let's find a 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: solution. I don't get it. Right. And it's why I'm not everybody's therapist. Cause you get to tell me your sad story one time, right? And you can take three appointments to tell me the whole story. I don't care, but we're going to do it once and then we'll use pieces of it to move forward.

But I can send you to people who will allow you just to sit and talk about how miserable you are for the next hundred years if you want. That's not my job. My job is to hear the whole story. Let's figure out your role in it. And then how do we, how do we shift out of that? 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Right. And you'd be amazed how many people are not interested in that type of therapy.

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Which is sad. I mean, it's I personally don't quite understand it, but it really goes into this exact topic, what we're talking about. It's almost like that wallowing in the failure, that wallowing in the uncomfortableness. And it's not 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: conscious. Yeah. Like when I tell people that's what's happening. I'm not so popular, right?

They're furious with me. And quite frankly, if you're working with a therapist and you don't get mad at them on occasion, I don't think they're doing their job. Because I'm supposed to poke the bear some of the time. In a loving and Christ like manner, but still, I'm supposed to poke the bear, right? And but it's, it's so ingrained and it's so unconscious.

And when we use something like EFT or tapping to go back to, let's go to that feeling, where's the first time you remember that feeling? And we always, typically we wind up in childhood. Yes. Oh, well, my mother did that. My father did that. Well, she learned that from, You know, it's generational. Yeah. But what I want people to know is in all of this, that emotional DNA is, is not, it is a hereditary thing.

No question. However, it can certainly be changed at any point. The buck can stop here. Yes. with physical or emotional DNA. I believe we can change that. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: I believe so too. And there's evidence that supports that we can. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Right. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: 100%. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Well, and I think these talks and, and how these chemicals work and what's happening in our brains and in our systems and in our minds help us figure out ways to do that.

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah. So I think the, the caveat, not caveat, but the additional statement of, yes, we can absolutely change this. But it's not going to be easy or comfortable maybe comfortable, right? 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Okay. I don't want to set it up that way It may be uncomfortable and it may be hard. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Okay, 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: but it doesn't have to be 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: okay. I think that's good I probably should Yeah, I should retract what I said, because we have seen, I mean, shoot, I've, I've done the same thing where I'm working with someone and you know, I'm going through, it's similar to EFT.

I kind of create, I call it my desensitization technique where we go back and we find a joyful time in life. Then we find a painful time in life and find a comfortable time in life. We find a fearful time in life and all this kind of stuff. And I'm using acupuncture points and lasers to help.

Basically regulate the limbic system and literally I've seen people just snap out of it whether it's a pain syndrome, a depression or whatever you see that more than I do. And, you know, this is 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: right in the mind body appointments, you know, when I get to either work on a patient or this week, it's been a lot of surrogate.

So mom or dad will surrogate for the person and for the child. And The body doesn't lie. So when I ask it a question, and I have them think of a trauma, and they do, and they disconnect, and then we do, basically, you know, same thing, I use tuning forks and laser and meridian points and all the things, and kinesiology, and then, And we don't talk about it.

They don't have to wade back through it. We don't have to do all that. And then to then have them think of that same trauma again and be strong. We're moving it out of their system. Yeah. We're letting go. And then their group benefits, everybody in the room benefits. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Absolutely. Right. And a lot of people outside that room benefit.

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Absolutely, right? Because we're back to our quantum. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Quantum entanglement. It's a thing. Banks use it to move money. It exists anyway. So you mentioned something EFT. That's emotional freedom technique. I think there's probably a lot of people that don't know that don't understand that. I know it's kind of, it's not necessarily on the topic of what we're talking about, but.

You brought it up. It's a very powerful technique. And do you want to talk about that a little bit? Maybe? Sure. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: It's, I like it, especially when working remotely, because it's one of the things that I, I know works. I've seen it work a billion times and I don't have to touch you in order to really feel like we're making that connection.

Right. Right. So I really like it, especially when I'm not in the same room with somebody. And what we're doing is we're just opening up those points on the body where we can allow that energy to start to shift. Right. And and what's interesting is some of those points that you're hitting in EFT are neurotransmitter points, you know, right.

This is GB 23. This is acetylcholine. Nice. Right. And that's one of the points in a, in a basic EFT. It's, it's, I like, one of the reasons I like some of the therapies that I get to use is there's a lot of science behind them and they just kind of help pull everything together. And the EFT is excellent for helping balance those chemicals, getting the brain and the body on the same page and allowing the system to start to first connect.

Those situations, right? Cause they'll always connect and then letting them go. Cause I tell people every time when we finish a session, you may think of things that you haven't thought of and forever, you may have crazy dreams. And we've had people come back to the office to talk about crazy dreams they've had, right?

And but it's just, that's just the, that's just the mind letting it go. It's just working its way through. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah. It's amazing. And it's a, it's a really extremely valuable resource. Because there's even method, protocols, if you will, for EFT that you can even do just with yourself and, and there's, you know, resources online for it and everything.

But obviously a 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: billion YouTube videos on every possible topic. If you want to make money, if you want to get a partner, if you, whatever, there's stuff to, yeah. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Obviously I think it's, you know, better when led by one of us and all that, but you know, that's all another discussion. I'm going to shift gears just a little bit because I'm going to put my nerd hat back on because I think it's always really important to, if we're talking about dopamine.

Understanding the direct pathway, the indirect pathway and the hyper direct pathway, right? And this goes back to where does dopamine come from? And, you know, this is talking about areas in the midbrain, a. k. a. the mesencephalon. But just understanding that we have these pathways and one of them acts like a gas pedal.

And that's the direct pathway. And one of them acts like. A brake pedal and that's the indirect pathway. And we can break those down. We could get into it about whatever and how neuro autoimmunity can make it to where you're constantly pushing the gas pedal or, you know, constantly pushing the brake pedal and all that kind of stuff.

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Right. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: What I want to point to is that we have two pathways dedicated to inhibition. We have the indirect pathway and we have the hyper direct pathway. And I just simply pointed out because I want people to understand how important it is to gain balance in a world that is so impulsive that sometimes exercising inhibition, which is a very prefrontal activity, indirect activity, you know, how that can be real rehabilitative for the brain and actually help us.

Live a longer, happier life. So do you have any comments on that? But my main takeaway here is how important inhibition is. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Oh, it's huge. And something that. In, in school, I think we expect children to be able to inhibit and sit down, 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: shut up. 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Nobody teaches us how to do that, 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: right? 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: Nobody teaches us restraint, right?

And when I'm working with kids, we spend a lot of time working on those kinds of things on delaying gratification, on learning that there's a reward and not being rewarded immediately. And those, those are such foreign concepts when we start. Very. Right, but we have to know how to do that. We have to be able if we don't have the pathways for that We're not going to be able to do it and so we have to build that.

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yep. And, and there's some really simple strategies that sound dumb that I have people do, right? So those people that are very impulsive or they lack prefrontal integrity, that would be someone that has a difficult time planning, coordinating their day really, you know, thinking through you know, high level concepts and breaking them down like this kind of stuff.

And it's crazy to think that this works, but it does. So anytime you want something, I, I, I will tell people, put a time limit on it. Oh, I'm thirsty. I want a glass of water. I'll get it in five minutes. Set a timer. Oh, I need to go to the bathroom. Obviously, if you don't have a, you know, stomach bug, let's not do this, but Oh, I need to go to the bathroom.

Set a timer. I'll do this in five minutes. Oh, my phone is ringing. I'm not going to get it right now. Oh, someone just texted me, right? You get that, that noise, that ding, that whatever it is, talk about a freaking dopamine response, right? Having to go, I'm not in my window of time to where I'm going to pay attention to my phone right now and inhibiting that response.

Not only is it important just to control these impulsivities and that kind of stuff, but you're actually beginning to build integrity in these networks of the brain that will then allow us to have a more balanced society, right? So important. So simple strategies like that can really add up over time and allow you to then.

In a meeting, not, you know, yell at someone, 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: right, right, exactly, right. Or not get suspended from school the first week. But two and just to jump back to addiction for just a second. One of the best analogies I have heard on. on being able to understand what that feels like is to not have your phone for the next 24 hours.

And every time you think about that phone or what you're missing, that's the same as an addict brain. Where's my next fix? Where's my next high? Where's my next thing? And it's that constant. And I think it's just a good reminder of How intense that desire, that dopamine desire can be when we don't have those balanced.

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Awesome. Well, that's a good discussion that we'll continue in the next segment. Yeah. Sounds good. Fantastic. I guess before we close out here, I wanted to point out and I, it's funny cause I knew this, but I didn't. Know it like it kind of hit me in the face is that learning increases dopamine firing in the brain.

Like learning actually has this dopamine driven response and it makes sense, right? Because dopamine drives neuroplasticity, right? So it would make sense that if we're learning a new concept or a new skill or something like that, that of course it's going to generate dopamine because that's one of the chemicals that helps shape and mold our brain.

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: That makes sense. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: I hope that everyone has learned something and you know, it's, it's important just to, you know, on that note, just understand that we need to continue to learn. We need to learn about ourselves. We need to learn about our relationships. We need to learn new skills. Like I want to learn new languages.

I just got to find the time, right? But I don't know if you have any, I mean, you have a doctorate in education. I mean, do you have any Dr. Dr. Jeri, do you have any other discussions there? 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: I think again, it's about balance because when we start this conversation, it makes me nervous because I bought so many courses and they're just sitting all lined up waiting for me to find the time to, to do them.

Right. So there's some, there's some balance there I need to find, but yeah, no, it makes perfect sense. I get so excited about, Oh, I want to learn about that. I want to know how to do this. Yeah. And you know, it's 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: funny because there are a lot of I hear that a lot in our circle of, you know, colleagues of, you know, Oh yeah, I bought that course.

How was it? I don't know. I haven't watched it yet. And you know, it's that whole digital age. I so miss the in person conferences. Oh my 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: gosh, me too. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: It's like, number one, you actually have to go to it and you have to learn. It's like, okay, well, I paid this. I'm going to, I got to go do it versus, yeah, I bought that.

It's on my computer. But then just that social connection and that ability to engage with other 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: people and so many times Especially like in in in and when I was new to functional neurology and those kinds of things those conversations that happen at lunch or in the hallway or Between presenters were just as informative and, and shaping for me as a lecture was, right?

And that's, that's why I miss, I miss that kind of 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: learning. Absolutely. 100%. And that's, that brings balance to the whole learning experience. Again, going back to your discussion on balance. Yeah. Well, cool. Was there anything else that you want to add to the discussion of part one about dopamine? I think 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: we covered.

Dr. Brandon Crawford: We didn't even get into all of it. I still have notes that we didn't get into, but but we have part two. And so everyone just make sure you tune into part two. We're going to continue this conversation, largely focusing on, you know, should we be detoxing from. digital you know, aspects of life.

Should, what is a dopamine detox look like and do we need it and all of these things, right? So that's going to be the conversation that we're going to start recording now, but you're, you'll have access to it next week. But Dr. Jeri, thank you so much for joining us as always. It's amazing to always get to pick your brain and, and you know, what you have to share to the world.

So 

Dr. Jeri LaVigne: thanks. 

Dr. Brandon Crawford: Thank you so much. All right, guys. So same as always, if this content. Or you think it can help someone else. Please, please, please share it. The reason why we're here is to help others. So please help us spread the word and we'll see you next time.

Voice Over: We hope today's episode has inspired you to take that next step towards your best self. Remember, the path to longevity is paved with small daily decisions. Your journey is unique and every step, every choice brings you closer to your ultimate vision of a healthier, happier life. For more insights, tips and resources, visit drbrandoncrawford.com

People on this episode

Head Shot

Dr. Brandon Crawford

Host